What if…

the church was not only relevant, but at the forefront of innovation?

With if…

the church was making culture rather than just trying to keep “relevant?”

What if…

the church strived to find new ways to show their love to God in worship?

What if…

the world looked to church for cultural relevance?

What if…

the church decided to leave traditions passed down from the years of Christendom, and asked the question, “what does it mean to be a Christian in today’s culture?”

What if?

Written by: James

Don't forget to subscribe to receive posts delivered to your reader or e-mail.

This entry was posted on Thursday, May 8th, 2008 at 8:45 am and is filed under Church, Culture, creativity, worship. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

12 Responses to “What if?”

W Says:

those are great questions. but my question to you would be what are you doing to make that happen? what does it mean to be a worship leader in today’s culture? what does a worship service look like that would be unlike the current culture, but still captures the depth of the God we worship, that would make the world “look to the church”? what do you do to make these questions a reality? what if you asked more than just “what if”?

Kent Sanders Says:

Your questions are all great. In fact, there is as much value in asking the questions as in seeking the answers. (That sounds very postmodern, but it’s true.) Just asking tough questions is half the battle in itself.

You said, “What if…the church decided to leave traditions passed down from the years of Christendom…” I don’t think leaving traditions is the answer. In fact, I think a large part of the answer to the questions you’re asking is not to abandon traditions, but to return them…in a new way. The answer to many of our frustrations about the impotence of the evangelical church in today’s culture can be found by going back to the early church and they way they worshiping and interacted with culture. Our culture is becoming more increasingly hostile to Christians, and we can find a lot of food for thought in church history.

You really should check out a new book by Robert Webber, “Ancient-Future Worship.” It will really spur your thinking.

BTW, the new site is cool.

James Says:

Lets think outside of the box…

Our church is currently under a process of change, and we’re asking these same questions. In case you go to my church (or in case someone from my church reads this), I dare not to share these things because I want them to be a surprise. Some of what we’re discussing the church won’t even see till at least a year down the road. Also, the premise of this blog is a “discussion on culture, art, and the church,” rather than a, “I have it all figured out, and every church should do these creative things.” But you asked for an example. A few weeks ago our Sunday morning topic was on giving, and it specifically focused on the widow who gave all she had. That sunday all the music focused on “giving to God,” and we had a lady from our church paint during the music and the sermon that also illustrated this topic.

But to be honest with you, I’d rather not specifically focus on the “church worship service” because I’m not sold that the answer is a “new spin on a contemporary worship service that is like what everyone else is doing, but is slightly different.” By all means, we should still strive to make our “worship services” creative, and innovative… but only one of my five questions was actually directed at worship services and the rest were related more to the culture. I think we’re at a dangerous place in our churches when we say the word “worship” and we exclusively think of the music part of the service on Sunday morning.

In the past there has been this “come and see” philosophy in most churches. The idea is that you create a building for your church, get people involved, they invite people, and this is how you build your church. The life of these churches depends on their congregation and their proactiveness in inviting others to church. Perhaps this was effective in the past, but the current generation (1977-1998) is found absent in churches across the U.S. This is because they are a generation that has been sold things all their life. They’ve grown up with the infomercials on T.V. and all the fake information and pop-up adds on the internet. They know when people aren’t genuine and when they’re trying to be “sold” on something. The idea of a friend trying to get them in church (to them) is on the same lines of someone trying to sell them a car… and this is actually a good way to give this generation a sour taste of church.

When will we see worship no longer exclusively with music, but living like Jesus?

I heard Dan Kimball speak at a conference last year. He wrote a book called “They Like Jesus but Not the Church,” (which I hope to read over the summer) and his lecture was based off his book. The premise of the book is that this emerging generation likes Jesus, but when it comes to Christians, they don’t see them as being like Jesus. Another book that’s recently come out, “UnChristian,” which is based off of information from the Barna research group has found that the world just doesn’t see Christians like Jesus. Ghandi even said, “I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.”

Our questions now become, how can we reflect Christ? How can our worship (not just music, but our lives) reflect Christ? Where have we gone wrong?

This is why it is important that the church begins to strive to be like Jesus rather than trying to “sell” their church. Invisible Children was created by three young guys (all in this generation) that found an ignored problem in Uganda and ultimately created a movement.

I think these types of things are where the church can start. The church should be at the forefront of causes. There are many causes that the world would agree are “good things,” and perhaps we should widen our focus to more than just doing things that will create converts. If the church is like Jesus, people will flock to the church.

W Says:

i completely agree that our worship services should not be our means of evangelism. it should be the people. our worship services should not be a watered down version with just great music and lights and “good” words just to cater to our visitors. if visitors are seeking truth, let’s give it to them in the fullness of the God we claim to worship, and let the congregation live missional lives that involve more than one conversation and then a cop out of inviting them to church, because we know our church has a “seeker friendly” service.

and it seems to me that you’re still not thinking “outside of the box.” you had a painter. great. why? what’s new about that? what’s innovative about that?

also, you say worship is more than music. of course!! i wish that was not even considered a good point. but how do you change that mentality in your church? maybe to a worship service with no music. maybe that would be innovative and outside the box.

“if the church is like Jesus, people will flock to the church.” what makes you think that? just because a guy wrote a book that you haven’t read? i’m not saying you’re wrong in this, i would just like to see why you think so. did Jesus not turn people away, call them to give their lives, to suffer for his sake, to deny ourselves? what would our culture of individualism find attractive about that that would make them flock to out churches?

i also think kent makes a great point.

James Says:

Before this conversation continues lets take a moment to remember that the church is the body of Christ, as well as His bride. Even though we can evaluate things and try to find new and creative ways to do our gatherings, we should never cut down the church. Perhaps that was not your intent… but be very careful when criticizing the church.

Also, about the painter. Remember, our church is in a process of change. This is actually the first step into incorporating more art. As a worship leader, as a pastor, as a servant, it is the clergy’s responsibility to serve their congregation, and drastically changing everything is not always beneficial because that can be a distraction in itself. Going back to your question, “why?” 1) because it’s the first step in a direction that we’re going, and 2) because it shows that worship is more than music.

Like I said before, the purpose of this blog is for discussion rather than instruction, and I appreciate your “no music” suggestion. This is an idea that I’ve bounced around a couple times. But I’ve currently decided not to do it because 1) many churches do it ever sense Matt Redman did it, 2) when exploring the scriptures they strongly suggest (and in some places) even require music and song in worship. Thus, we do not want to completely disconnect music with worship either.

Dan Kimball… I heard him lecture… I plan to read his book, but the information I spoke of was from the lecture (just to clear confusion).

Also, Dan Kimball did not say “if the church is like Jesus, people will flock to the church.” That’s my own personal opinion. If you look at Jesus. He showed love and people flocked to him… by the thousands. Even now the research shows that non-Christians do not have a problem with Jesus… it’s with the church. In fact, when the Barna research group came up with this information, they found that most of the people had attended church (even on a regular basis), but left because they did not like the Christians.

I think the emerging generation will cause a lot of great change in today’s churches. However, I have a great concern with it as well. They criticize the older generation who likes the hymns by saying, “they’re stuck in their ways, and they think they’re right, and their way is the only way to worship.” But this emerging generation is the exact same way, and perhaps even worse in some areas.

Referring back to what I said about how people view Christians… I’m also afraid that the emerging generation will use this information as ammunition to fire at Christians who give other Christians a “bad name.” I think it is important to know of these stereotypes so that we can bring about change… but it is also important to not cut down these people either.

If there’s anything you read about this comment, read this:
1) I am not saying that I have everything figured out or even together
2) the purpose of this blog is to discuss possible ideas for the future of the church
3) this first post was an introduction to the blog, almost to segue to future posts. Most of the questions you’ve asked have not been a simple answer (this is why my replies are excessive in length). Most of what I’ve touched today is only a taste of what I’d like to discuss in the future.
4) What do you think? Do you agree with my questions I’ve asked? Should the church be creative and innovative? If so, what does that look like? If not, why not? What should the church do in worship services, but more importantly in the culture? Should Christians cling to the culture, or separate? You’ve heard my views, let’s actually begin to discuss.

W Says:

well first, i’m not try to “cut down” the church, but i am certainly being critical. without criticism there can be no growth, no change, and no deep thinking in how we are to solve our problems. would you say every “church” out there is the bride of Christ?

all i am trying to do in asking these questions is create some deeper discussion on these issues. i know you do not have all the answers. i do not have all the answers. but i think we need to continue to challenge ourselves in our thinking. i’m tired of every worship leader asking the same questions and not actually leading people to answer and chase after the questions you have asked.

to your questions at the end, yes, in short, i do agree. but again, i just wanted to get deeper and see what was behind the questions being asked. of course the church should be creative and innovative. we serve a God who is both of those things. now, what does that look like? well i suppose that would be up to you to test you creativity with the knowledge you have both of God and culture, that would serve the end goal of leading people into a lifestyle of worship. so that would involve a thorough knowledge of both God and the culture, and the relationship they have with each other. and i do not think we need to separate from our culture. we are in the world but not of it. so maybe we are able to connect with our culture through simple conversations about politics or what not, in order to engage in it. people do not need to come to our worship service to see who Christ is. we should love our neighbors who are saturated in our culture. as i said before, we are the evangelism tools, not our church service.

i appreciate your thoughts and your blog. perhaps i should create one myself. i look forward to future posts.

Kent Sanders Says:

There is certainly a lot of good discussion going on here. Aside from all the issues and questions raised, I have a couple of thoughts:

First, what is the role of the critic in relation to the church? It’s easy to criticize the church because there are many issues that need to be addressed. It’s not perfect, and that’s because it’s led by imperfect human beings. Criticism can be helpful, and I would argue necessary, if given in the right spirit and at the right time. But it has to come from the right motive. James, you are absolutely correct that we should be careful in how we criticize the church because it’s the bride of Christ.

Second–and this is directed at “W”–I’m assuming you’re not a pastor or a church staff member, judging by your comments. I used to work at a church, but now I teach full-time at a Christian college. I have been a staff member and am now a volunteer, so I understand both sides. Leadership in the church is really tough for a variety of reasons, and I appreciate James’ willingness to ask some tough questions. It’s very easy to criticize when you’re not in the leadership role of a church, but it’s infinitely harder to bring about change when you’re actually doing it. Just a thought.

When we criticize or point out mistakes and shortcomings in the church, it must come from a spirit of love, concern and loyalty. At the church where I serve now, I don’t necessarily “love” all the music we do, but I decided long ago that I would support and love our worship ministry staff, and be loyal to them. There is very little loyalty to the local church today, and it shouldn’t be that way.

This is somewhat off topic but I think our concerns about the church, along with questions we raise, must come from a context of love and support for the church and its leaders, not just a spirit of contention and negativity. I see a lot of ranting in the “blogosphere”–and much of the time it comes from a spirit of hate, not love. “W,” I’m not saying you’re doing that necessarily, I just think it’s a good reminder for all of us.

W Says:

actually i am in leadership at my church, and have been in church leadership for years. i don’t even see why you even brought that up. if i wasn’t, my views would be the same. a good leader does not fall back on the fact that he is a leader and therefore has a better perspective or advantage. i completely agree that it is very tough to be in church leadership, and i also agree that it is extremely difficult to bring about change. my response to james’ questions is not that they are “tough,” but given, and i wanted to provoke thoughts that were past the questions. and i am certainly not asking questions with a hateful attitude. i will admit, however, i am try to stir things up and i am very blunt. i will say what’s on my mind. like i said before, i simply like to challenge people’s thinking in order to go into deeper discussion. i’m sorry if that was not the goal here. i was simply provoking thought. i have not even disagreed with anything said on this blog, even your comments, but i have challenged the thinking behind them. as i said before, i appreciate this blog, and i appreciate james willingness to make one. if i had a blog, i would love people to challenge my thinking because that would make me think even more.

the comments i said were simply the things in my head. i think a good discussion involves getting all the thoughts out there. if not, it only remains on the surface level and doesn’t require any critical thinking, which in turn solves nothing. if every comment on a blog simply agreed with everything else, how can there be discussion? how can there be two sides? without that a blog becomes just another affirmation that everybody thinks something, and we decided to write it down so that more people can affirm our thinking. if discussion is our goal, let’s do it. if not, this will be just another blog.

just because i actually discuss things on a blog from different, perhaps “in your face” format, does not mean i do not love the church, and am loyal to the church. if i did not care, i would care about this discussion either. being critical does not equal hatred or an insupportable attitude. rather, it can be quite the opposite. yes, the church is the bride of Christ. more the reason to discuss everything about it, even short comings. but is a church still the bride of Christ when they lead people to a misconception of who He is? i’m not saying that’s what you do, just a question. i understand we will always encounter problems in church. i understand you may not always love the music. but do you not like the music because it doesn’t appeal to your style, or because you think it fails to meet the standards of worship? because that changes things quite drastically.

if you would like for me to stop commenting, i would be more that happy to do so.

ron Says:

James,
You say that we are not supposed to “cut down” the church because she is the bride of Christ. But when she acts like a whore, are we not supposed to say anything?

Ron

ron Says:

Kent,

I don’t know how you can possibly assume that W is not a staff member or pastor based on his comments. I would argue that maybe his/her comments do actually come from love and not hate. When the Church you love does not fulfill her role, we should do everything in our power to stand up and say/do something about it. I do not know W from Adam but I do not think it is appropriate to assume anything about him (or her).

ron

Kent Sanders Says:

W and Ron,

You’re right, perhaps I was assuming too much in my comments. But sometimes there is a lot of negativity about the church and its leaders without an equal recognition that the church in indeed doing some very good things. There is a lot of talk in generalities, i.e. Ron’s comment about the church acting like a “whore,” when this oversimplifies, and (I believe) vilifies the church. Although the church, the body of Christ, is one, decisions and actions are not done by “the church,” they are done by individuals. W and Ron, I am really interested in hearing what specific things you are unhappy with concerning the church today. I do appreciate the interaction and back-and-forth…I think that’s what makes an interesting blog, as W pointed.

Pam Smith Says:

James,

I really like what I see thus far on your blog, it’s a really good effort and resource. Also, I saw your comment on the Planning Center Online’s site and had to laugh that we’re all using the same technology without really knowing it. My church also takes advantage of that service. :)

Have a good summer,
Pam

Leave a Reply

XHTML: You can use these tags: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>

  • Media


  • Credits

  • Subscribe


  • Join the discussion

  • login




  • Creative Commons License